Curse

Gli · Jun 02, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Let's not forget that playing with an altered client is already an offense, whether said alteration is used to run a botting script or not.

Actually using the alteration for botting purposes, is a second offense.

Gaining an advantage through said botting is a third offense, whether you do it once or 1,000,000 times.

That's three strikes.

snaek · Jun 02, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahja the thief

ANET is simply following your example

ha... anet lowering themselves to the level of cheaters. you make one strong argument there. no wonder you think having a relatively fair system in place is unachievable...

Lord Sojar · Jun 02, 2010, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Let's not forget that playing with an altered client is already an offense, whether said alteration is used to run a botting script or not.

Actually using the alteration for botting purposes, is a second offense.

Gaining an advantage through said botting is a third offense, whether you do it once or 1,000,000 times.

That's three strikes.

Oh, this is a great way of viewing this Gli! <3

On that note... Guild Wars uses slightly different rules from Baseball or US law...

It goes something like this...

Strike 1, Strike 2, Strike 3,

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

ha... anet lowering themselves to the level of cheaters. you make one strong argument there. no wonder you think having a relatively fair system in place is unachievable...

Revenge is a dish best served permanently.

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Again, this is just another excuse. You are trying to make the case that something that doesn't effect other players in any way whatsoever is similar to something that does.

People running texmod that complete carto faster, and therefore can move on to impacting the economy with farming, doesn't impact others? People running texmod to quickly learn HFFF routes in the day and pull in faction faster than pvp doesn't affect others? Bad monks playing a little above their skill level with HP bars affect others? Spike callers seeing frenzy warriors light up in rainbow even when not selected doesn't affect others?

The degree of advantage conferred by texmod is far less, but it is nonetheless an advantage.

I'm not advocating any leniency on botters or even people who use party window hack, but the undefined grey lines, and harsh consequences for running over them, are troubling.

Martin Alvito · Jun 02, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

That's a bit of an oversimplification, Rahja.

Ex: A guy I regularly play with during Snowball ATs uses TexMod to do a couple of things. First of all, he turns off the falling snow. Second, he changes the color of the gift so that it's very easy to see who is carrying a gift.

These changes confer advantage in a form of PvP. They aren't bannable because a) the advantage is minimal and b) ANet can't detect it. If the advantage were gamebreaking, ANet would probably insist that we install some VAC-style software.

At the end of the day, that's where the pro-botters are hitting your argument. They claim that the rules for what is bannable and what is not are not well defined, and that their actions don't merit a perma-ban.

However, what that argument lacks is a coherent claim about what merits a perma-ban and what doesn't. I'd take the position that any form of client modification for the purposes of gaining an advantage merits a perma-ban, and that the only reason things like TexMod don't in practice earn one is that monitoring and enforcement costs are too high.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't really care all that much about truly victimless crimes like the drunkard bot. IMO, the developer needs to step in when players' actions have distributional consequences (such that cheaters earn stuff at the expense of non-cheaters). ANet has more or less taken the stance that when players exploit ANet's development decisions through "normal play" (ie: farming, IWAY, Duncan bugs), they'll let it slide. It's actions that require exploiting client loopholes that lead to bans.

Duping, the DoA exploit, and botting are all flagrant violations under that standard.

Still Number One · Jun 02, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by windtalker

Um, what?
Have you ever heard of the word justice?

People breaking the rules and being appropriately punished is justice. You can't compare botting to anything in the real world. This is Guild Wars. Cheating is the most serious offense in Guild Wars you can do. Botting is a form of cheating. The punishment as determined by the law (A.Net) is a perma ban.

This isn't a democracy. A.Net holds all the power in making and enforcing their rules. You have no right to tell them otherwise. You don't wanna get banned, then follow their rules. You don't like the rules, then go play something else. There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about permabanning anyone for breaking the rules A.Net has in place, and every single one of A.Nets rules are justified.

By giving cheaters a perma ban, justice is being served.

Lord Sojar · Jun 02, 2010, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

People running texmod that complete carto faster, and therefore can move on to impacting the economy with farming, doesn't impact others? People running texmod to quickly learn HFFF routes in the day and pull in faction faster than pvp doesn't affect others? Bad monks playing a little above their skill level with HP bars affect others? Spike callers seeing frenzy warriors light up in rainbow even when not selected doesn't affect others?

The degree of advantage conferred by texmod is far less, but it is nonetheless an advantage.

I'm not advocating any leniency on botters or even people who use party window hack, but the undefined grey lines, and harsh consequences for running over them, are troubling.

Again, this is attempting to make an excuse, by sighting a gray area that was NEVER a gray area. ANET has always said TexMod was ok to use.

In addition, everyone can access TexMod, and no one will get banned for doing so. Also, TexMod doesn't play the game for you.

TexMod is similar to using dual monitors. I use dual monitors, is that a gray area too? Yet another excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That's a bit of an oversimplification, Rahja.

Ex: A guy I regularly play with during Snowball ATs uses TexMod to do a couple of things. First of all, he turns off the falling snow. Second, he changes the color of the gift so that it's very easy to see who is carrying a gift.

These changes confer advantage in a form of PvP. They aren't bannable because a) the advantage is minimal and b) ANet can't detect it. If the advantage were gamebreaking, ANet would probably insist that we install some VAC-style software.

At the end of the day, that's where the pro-botters are hitting your argument. They claim that the rules for what is bannable and what is not are not well defined, and that their actions don't merit a perma-ban.

However, what that argument lacks is a coherent claim about what merits a perma-ban and what doesn't. I'd take the position that any form of client modification for the purposes of gaining an advantage merits a perma-ban, and that the only reason things like TexMod don't in practice earn one is that monitoring and enforcement costs are too high.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't really care all that much about truly victimless crimes like the drunkard bot. IMO, the developer needs to step in when players' actions have distributional consequences (such that cheaters earn stuff at the expense of non-cheaters). ANet has more or less taken the stance that when players exploit ANet's development decisions through "normal play" (ie: farming, IWAY, Duncan bugs), they'll let it slide. It's actions that require exploiting client loopholes that lead to bans.

Duping, the DoA exploit, and botting are all flagrant violations under that standard.

You just proved my point. TexMod doesn't alter the client, it simply replaces textures. It's the most benign thing EVER. That, and everyone can use it freely, without the risk of a ban. It's widely available. Personally, I don't use it, and I can still kick anyone's ass who does, so it clearly isn't giving the people who use it an edge.

Jenn · Jun 02, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

....slay ... cheating asses ... heinous ... sins.

Wow. Strong words for a game, bro. I see so many people taking this way too far - on both sides. The holier-than-thou people are getting more annoying than the people grieving over the loss of their accounts.

Somewhat on-topic... as someone else said several posts ago, I'm curious as to what anet will do regarding other game exploiters. I obviously don't expect details or time lines - an element of surprise is always key! My hope is that they do address it because there are a lot of ways for people to cheat without using dll injectors. The only bump in the road I see for that is how will they discern between people prettying up some textures using texmod, or those doing something more sinister to get an advantage over others in PvP?

I'm not an expert in such things

. There's a thread out there asking about AutoHotKey and if it's okay. I wonder what anet will do to approach situations like this

.

Lord Sojar · Jun 02, 2010, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

Wow. Strong words for a game, bro. I see so many people taking this way too far - on both sides. The holier-than-thou people are getting more annoying than the people grieving over the loss of their accounts.

Somewhat on-topic... as someone else said several posts ago, I'm curious as to what anet will do regarding other game exploiters. I obviously don't expect details or time lines - an element of surprise is always key! My hope is that they do address it because there are a lot of ways for people to cheat without using dll injectors. The only bump in the road I see for that is how will they discern between people prettying up some textures using texmod, or those doing something more sinister to get an advantage over others in PvP?

I'm not an expert in such things

. There's a thread out there asking about AutoHotKey and if it's okay. I wonder what anet will do to approach situations like this

.

I'd go away if it wasn't for the sheer stupidity being expressed, and the plethora of excuses.

That, and I do believe Dhuum did slay them for their sins against humanity, did he not? And they were cheating, yes?

My words have passion behind them, nothing more

You of all people, Jenn, should know that I hold my convictions very strongly, as it seems a lot of other people do.

And I wouldn't call the lot of us who are poking fun at this "holier-than-thou"...

It's a rather simple distinction: Those who chose to cheat and those who didn't, no holy-esk bologna about it.

AutoHotKey? What iz dat?

snaek · Jun 02, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin alvito

At the end of the day, that's where the pro-botters are hitting your argument. They claim that the rules for what is bannable and what is not are not well defined, and that their actions don't merit a perma-ban.

However, what that argument lacks is a coherent claim about what merits a perma-ban and what doesn't. I'd take the position that any form of client modification for the purposes of gaining an advantage merits a perma-ban, and that the only reason things like TexMod don't in practice earn one is that monitoring and enforcement costs are too high.

finally a non-biased response. personally i feel that people take the word "botting" way out of proportion. botting, exploiting, hacking, etc, etc are simply all just means of cheating. quite frankly, i don't care how one cheats, but in the end it is cheating above all that must be under review.

all i'm trying to argue here is fairness.

Faer · Jun 02, 2010, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Using a second monitor isn't going to alter skill animations to make them easier to pick out and disrupt or otherwise react to in a competitive environment. TexMod has the ability to provide players with advantages over other players in direct manners through client-side modifications; but, as Martin pointed out, it would be far too costly to police this sort of thing and thus nothing will ever be done about it.

Jinkies · Jun 02, 2010, 01:07 AM // 01:07

From what I understand people who have been running GWCA based bots on their alts that didn't get banned (since the ban) have yet to be banned. This would suggest that Anet's super amazing bot detection methods aren't really all that great and it takes alot of time for bans to actually catch up with the botters.

As for botting in PvP, well it looks like the days of a bot free zone are about to come to an end. People are already returning to oldschool pixel/interface interrupt bots. This isn't as effective as the rupty since it requires players to have selected the target or have the target in clear sight (so you can see the casting animation) to work, but it will get the job done.

I'm sorry Anet but so far in 6 months you've managed to ban only those using injection. Obviously if it takes you that long to ban this select group of people, it's going to take years before they make any progress with interface bots or exploits.

Letting people know that you /care has always been the best way to stop problems like this. Think back to the pre searing incident, if you hadn't come forward saying to delete all the exploited items think how many more people you would have ended up banning in attempt to stop the flow of illegal items in pre.

There is a reason you haven't stopped most botters yet. And that's because you just plain can't. The only methods you have are checking for repetitive action, which could easily be justified by a macro, and in game reporters, which you've never given a shit about anyway.

Faer · Jun 02, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinkies

From what I understand people who have been running GWCA based bots on their alts that didn't get banned (since the ban) have yet to be banned. This would suggest that Anet's super amazing bot detection methods aren't really all that great and it takes alot of time for bans to actually catch up with the botters.

I believe it was mentioned in a press release (or something of that nature) that they would be adopting the banwave system commonly used by companies such as Blizzard and Valve. It's likely that anyone using GWCA bots won't be banned for another 3-6 months.

Which, naturally, gives them plenty of time to obtain virtual riches and safely stash them away on alternate accounts.

Bill Easternview · Jun 02, 2010, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Leaving aside the venom being spewed here, there are other issues associated with the ban. Issues which do not bode well for GW2.

One of the earlier posters in this thread claimed that all of the banned accounts used a particular type of Bot within a narrow time period. While people who used these bots earlier were not banned, and people currently using other types of bots were also not banned. IF THIS IS TRUE, then the bans were the result of a short period of real-time monitoring of server-side activity for particular indicators. The bans were not the result of someone processing long term logs of online actions by all players, they were the result of extra people actively watching closely for a while.

This would explain the problems Anet is continuing to have with gold sellers, as well as why users of other types of bots were unaffected by the bans. It suggests that GW was not programmed with an eye toward within game security and so things that should have been included in the basic structure of the program were not. If you want to help with the gold-seller problem and gold/item collection bots you should be urging Anet to give due consideration to solving these problem BEFORE they release GW2.

mini pet monster · Jun 02, 2010, 02:11 AM // 02:11

For those of you that are curious, the bans were not for 'botting' per se, but for injecting a certain .dll

Of course, many, many botters were caught because the .dll gave such powerful options and botters couldn't resist using it.

However, I can give some funny examples of bans that happened to real players:

1. Someone released a map travel tool on a guild website. It allows you to map travel to anywhere in the game that you have unlocked on that character. For example, you can go from ToA to DoA in 1 click. Woohoo! Little did these guildies know, the utility was built using that forbidden .dll. They are all perma'd.

2. I'm going to assume 95% of the players with max drunkard used some kind of glitch (remember when you could drink, map travel, drink, map travel?) or an auto clicker. I have never heard of someone being perma'd for clicking booze. Well, one poor soul used the injected drunkard clicker because it was so readily available. He didn't dare use any other bots, but he figured, who's been banned for a drunkard clicker? Well he was.

I can also give some funny examples of real people that were not banned:

1. A few people botted hard on alt accounts, but never injected on their main account. Their bot accounts are smoked, but their mains live on. They also gained some fat stacks. Good for them.

2. Those that started injecting about 2 weeks ago, missed the ban wave. No doubt, they are crapping their pants, but for now, they are safe.

So, if everyone was banned for modifying the client, but not necessarily 'botting', why is texmod, multilaunch and ksmod ok?

Texmod can be used to confer some cool advantages as martin posted. It can also be used to help with cartographer, and even help setup pixel detection bots. I believe texmod was the main tool used by guild wars botters before this new .dll came out. Diablo 2 bots live off of texmod.

Multilaunch confers wicked advantage to those that can use it. You can rush multiple accounts through one area, instead of playing it over 3 times. You could red resign like a BOSS. I'm sure everyone knows someone that loaded up 4 accounts or something crazy and made a few thousand zkeys. You can powertrade kamadan and scam ascalon at the same time. During canthan new year, all the top rbr racers had multi accounts going. They would race the first 30s, and if they couldn't get a top score, they would just switch accounts. During festivals, people drop all their accounts into kamadan/LA/shing jea and afk gifts. The list goes on.

I'm unfamiliar with ksmod but I believe it plays some fun noises when enemies die. In GvG or HA, its nice to have something indicate when someone dies besides a tiny little faction counter that pops up.

These modifications all confer advantages. They are OK as long as not abused right? So why is the standard not the same for this modification that got 3700+ banned?

JoeKnowMo · Jun 02, 2010, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

Wow. Strong words for a game, bro. I see so many people taking this way too far - on both sides. The holier-than-thou people are getting more annoying than the people grieving over the loss of their accounts.

People are not simply grieving over the loss of their accounts. They are trying to get them back by whatever means possible. Even if means starting a thread that screams, "I'm guilty, but not as guilty as some others."

For some reason, the mods have let this thread go on despite most of the posts appealing bans being off topic, including the OP. It makes any reasonable person question where the sympathies of the mods lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

However, what that (pro botters') argument lacks is a coherent claim about what merits a perma-ban and what doesn't. I'd take the position that any form of client modification for the purposes of gaining an advantage merits a perma-ban, and that the only reason things like TexMod don't in practice earn one is that monitoring and enforcement costs are too high.

I agree that there is some gray area here. However, as you stated, those banned haven't come up with a coherent claim.

YunSooJin · Jun 02, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by mini pet monster

For those of you that are curious, the bans were not for 'botting' per se, but for injecting a certain .dll

Of course, many, many botters were caught because the .dll gave such powerful options and botters couldn't resist using it.

However, I can give some funny examples of bans that happened to real players:

1. Someone released a map travel tool on a guild website. It allows you to map travel to anywhere in the game that you have unlocked on that character. For example, you can go from ToA to DoA in 1 click. Woohoo! Little did these guildies know, the utility was built using that forbidden .dll. They are all perma'd.

2. I'm going to assume 95% of the players with max drunkard used some kind of glitch (remember when you could drink, map travel, drink, map travel?) or an auto clicker. I have never heard of someone being perma'd for clicking booze. Well, one poor soul used the injected drunkard clicker because it was so readily available. He didn't dare use any other bots, but he figured, who's been banned for a drunkard clicker? Well he was.

I can also give some funny examples of real people that were not banned:

1. A few people botted hard on alt accounts, but never injected on their main account. Their bot accounts are smoked, but their mains live on. They also gained some fat stacks. Good for them.

2. Those that started injecting about 2 weeks ago, missed the ban wave. No doubt, they are crapping their pants, but for now, they are safe.

So, if everyone was banned for modifying the client, but not necessarily 'botting', why is texmod, multilaunch and ksmod ok?

Texmod can be used to confer some cool advantages as martin posted. It can also be used to help with cartographer, and even help setup pixel detection bots. I believe texmod was the main tool used by guild wars botters before this new .dll came out. Diablo 2 bots live off of texmod.

Multilaunch confers wicked advantage to those that can use it. You can rush multiple accounts through one area, instead of playing it over 3 times. You could red resign like a BOSS. I'm sure everyone knows someone that loaded up 4 accounts or something crazy and made a few thousand zkeys. You can powertrade kamadan and scam ascalon at the same time. During canthan new year, all the top rbr racers had multi accounts going. They would race the first 30s, and if they couldn't get a top score, they would just switch accounts. During festivals, people drop all their accounts into kamadan/LA/shing jea and afk gifts. The list goes on.

I'm unfamiliar with ksmod but I believe it plays some fun noises when enemies die. In GvG or HA, its nice to have something indicate when someone dies besides a tiny little faction counter that pops up.

These modifications all confer advantages. They are OK as long as not abused right? So why is the standard not the same for this modification that got 3700+ banned?

cause you can't reliably detect most of the modifications.. except for .dll injection :P. I'd say its less of a double standard and more of a "we don't know if these other guys are botting, but we sure do know you're botting!"

There is no way GW can detect whether you are using a third party program that uses pixel detection.. no way. I suppose if they made the game more invasive and it checked up on your task manager they could, but even then there are multiple options out there to run bots.. I mean, bots have existed as long as grind-games have existed.

Ka Tet · Jun 02, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

The people who were banned have a reason to keep saying things.
a. to attempt to make a point.
b. to attempt to make themselves feel a little better about a crappy situation.

The people flaming the banned people need to keep saying things.
a. to feel better about themselves at the expense of others.

I'm going to side with Team Banned. Here's why:
You can justify it anyway you like, but unless you're talking about people who bot PVP, What anyone does in this game has absolutely no effect on anyone else's ability to play the game.
The arguments lamenting the effects on a fictional economy- grow the F up.
Saying it detracts from the value of a video game title- again grow the F up.
Saying it hurts the integrity of the game- it's a videogame, grow the F up.
Singing cheater-cheater- do what you were told to do in kindergarten, don't worry about what other people do. It doesn't affect you. Worry about what you do. And BTW, grow the F up.

I farmed my Lux title almost exclusively in comp mishes during the height of the botting craze. Just about every match, there would be 3 wand bots running around the map in circles, all but guaranteeing fail. I gotta tell you, I still don't see a need to ban those accounts. Just perma-dishonor them, so they can't ruin the game play and call it a day.

Ninja Ninja · Jun 02, 2010, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

The people flaming the banned people need to keep saying things.

Do you think I and others come to gwguru to see 5 generic threads on bots crying. Nobody cares that you got banned, seriously if you want sympathy from other bots then take it up on the bot forums. I can't wait till this crap goes away or at least dies down to one thread.
BTW am I supposed to feel bad for the bot that I would see every day in the game or the person who spent a minute starting it for the day?

Faer · Jun 02, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Do you think I and others come to gwguru to see 5 generic threads on bots crying.

I don't come to Guru to see hundreds of pages of retarded ideas, but lo and behold, they exist anyway.

Guru is a forum for discussion. Sometimes people want to discuss things that other people don't want to discuss, but that's par for the course on the Internet.